Thurrock MPs defy PM over gay marriage

It’s good to see that both our MPs have not lost touch of reality on this subject. I just don’t think it was important enough to discuss it now considering the mess the country is in at the moment.

Most gay people I know couldn’t give a damn about being married in a church. There are no legal differences between civil partnerships and being married in a church. This was about forcing the church to accept gay marriage. It will be up before the ECHR before you know it once the first church refuses to marry a gay couple.

This issue is a very hot potatoe, each religion holds differing views on the subject of homosexuality and I feel that the Government are overstepping the mark by trying to force these religious institutions into performing what is in essence a religious ceremony between two people who are against the doctrines of their teachings.

The civil ceremony is a legal marriage where as a church wedding is a religious ceremony, gay couples already have the right to be married so there is no issue, if people read the bible they would see the deep rooted feelings within the church regarding this subject and no politician should be above their god and force them into something that obviously do not honour.

Politics and Religion never make happy bed fellows and should never be mixed.

I don’t know why some homosexual clerics didn’t think to break away and set up their own Church. Let’s face it, there are already some pretty odd religious groups out there and I am sure there is space for a Church run by homosexuals who could then cater for the homosexual community.

I would of thought with the amount of homosexuals in the Tory party they would have bent over forwards for this proposal.

I just happen to think that people who oppose gay marriage are no better than those who opposed votes for women or indeed legalizing homosexuality itself. What have gay people done wrong to be actively discriminated against? I would think if a church refused to marry a mixed race couple simply on the grounds that they were not of the same nationality or colour, then they would be tried in a court of law.

It may not be important to you Bernard 87 or even myself, but for whatever reason our PM has decided that it is, and as such every right minded person should back him to the hilt.

Just because the gay people you know, NoVoice, don’t give a damn, is no reason to penalize other gays couples who do. Religious leaders should be utterly ashamed of themselves for voicing their bigoted views – they say they are not bigots but how else would you describe people who seek to deny a section of the community their basic human rights just because of their sexuality? I feel sure that If they had their way all gay people would be shot. All this homophobia by the church should be investigated and anyone found guilty of such a crime should be treated as a common criminal.

You fail to see the irony in what you have just posted The Doove. We should all do as you say because you are right and anyone with religious views is a biogot. Well said and perhaps you might want to google the word bigot.

The Doove, Christians, and those of other faiths, believe that homosexual marriage is against the word of God. It is a belief that has been held for thousands of years and by countless millions of people. As individuals, Christians may well be extremely relaxed about homosexuality but their faith demands that it bars homosexuals from marriage. I am not a person of faith, in fact, i am atheist but, for those who are true believers the issue of homosexual marriage is an extremely emotive one. Do they go with the modern ideals or do they remain true to the word of their God? To call such people homophobes and to say they should be ashamed is somewhat missing the point.

One thing that I find a bit suspect in this whole issue though, why no mention of homosexuals being able to marry in a Mosque? Surely it is not right to pick on just the Christian faith? Why not insist Moslems must marry homosexuals too, or is that far too difficult a task for the Government to take on? Does the Government truly believe in homosexual marriage and, if it does, why has the Moslem faith (to my knowledge) not been talked about at all? Curious I think.

If, ‘homosexual marriage is against the word of God’, then I am sorry, that also makes god himself a bigot and all of those who, ‘follow’, him/her.

For goodness sake, we all have a brain, why not make use of it and not let some imaginary super being dictate to us what we should be thinking. God was invented, not discovered, and as such can and should be uninvented if that is the kind of nonsense that he/she espouses.

The point is, gray64, bigots are bigots and a lot of them shelter under the illusion that they are doing god’s work – it makes me feel ashamed that there are people like this.

Maybe I am a bigot too for my very strong views on this, NoVoice, but I am not trying to interfere with the vast majority of people’s wishes and cause hurt to a section of our community who just happen to be gay.

Is it me??

You just referred to christians as bigots and homophobes because of their beliefs and because they want to be able to live their life their way without interference and being told how to behave. What part of that isn’t interfering and causing hurt to a section of communities up and down the country. You’re saying that they should accept your way of thinking because their way of thinking is wrong. Isn’t that where we came in on this but from the viewpoint of gay couples.The bill being discussed removes any right to getting married in a church for same sex couples so their views have been recognised to that point. So back to the registry office it is I’m afraid. No change. Unless of course you’re saying this has simply opened the floodgates for pointless legal actions against the christian church at huge expense to the public. Don’t forget, as has already been mentioned, try and force the christian church to marry people, then you are taking on every religion in the country. Good luck with that one.

It’s true to say that assuming this bill goes through, then it does not matter what the church thinks, and 2 fingers up to them.

I just cannot get it into my head why the church thinks that all gay couples are so bad and evil that they should not be afforded the same benefits as straight couples – why do they hate them so much? I also agree that it would be more than futile to bring the church to court over this matter so just as god dictates to them what they should be thinking, they in turn, are dictating to the government what they should be doing – legally correct, but morally indefensible.

Why don’t Christians simply think that maybe, just maybe, their faith is misguided, and to put it bluntly plain stupid on every level imaginable.

God says it’s wrong therefore it is wrong – that’s how Hitler came to power, unquestioning obedience.

The Doove, you really are approaching this from the wrong end. If you do not believe in God then please say so and, once you have done that, try putting together an argument that doesn’t run with your usual ‘me right, them wrong’ line of reasoning, it’s infantile. Let’s just suppose for a minute that there is a God (I am assuming I don’t have to explain what that means). Then all the Christians and Moslems and Jews etc etc are right and you are wrong in everything you say because, Gods word is Law. Now, you can’t prove God exists but you also can’t prove that he doesn’t so there is every possibility that all those of faith are the ones on the right side of the argument. What you don’t seem to get, The Doove, is that true believers really Believe in God so all other arguments don’t really come into their way of thinking. You are also mightily wrong when you say the Church hates homosexuals, it does no such thing and has repeatedly stated that time and time again. Equating God to Hitler is outrageous and it’s symptomatic of your rank hypocrisy where you want respect for the rights of homosexuals whilst at the same time demolishing the rights and upsetting the sensibilities of people with faith. You, The Doove, are the one here who is…”misguided, and to put it bluntly plain stupid on every level imaginable..”

To backup what gray64 has said, Christians (true Christians) do not hate homosexuals, rather than shunning them they would try to teach them the errors of their ways as that was part of God/Jesus teachings.

The Church, indeed all religions, follow the doctrine as laid out by their spiritual leader and those who follow those faiths will also follow that doctrine, they are not being bigoted per-se but hold the word of their leader as the true path to spiritual fulfillment.

I would love to see the Church taken on by the ECHJ, just wonder how they would call God to the stand 🙂

Oh and no I am not a Christian, far from it, my faith pre-dates Christianity and several of our followers were drowned and burnt at the stake for their beliefs….

I do not believe in God. My reasoned argument is as follows. If I cannot see god, if I cannot hear god, then in my humble opinion he cannot exist. I can imagine god in my head but that would be what a lot of people do who really ought to know better.

My point is that we cannot rely on god to help us out in our everyday lives, even if he/she does exist, at best god is irrelevant, and at worse he/she is downright dangerous. We have to take it upon ourselves to sort out any problems that may be incurred in our lives and not god.

If there is a god, then god help us, because he/she is not doing a very good job. Just giving a few bigoted members of the community ammunition to castigate those who are not deserving of such treatment. God creates more problems than he solves, so what is the point?

You are quite right gray64 I do want to upset those people who seek to upset the rights of others, they really do not deserve to be respected at all.

My definition of a, ‘true’, Christian is one that believes in equality for everybody, not just for those who happen to have the same skin colour or have the same sexual orientation as themselves – there are a few about, but are being overshadowed and shouted down by extremist views.

Look after yourselves and your loved ones because god will not do it for you.

“And some fell on stony ground” Mark 4:5

So what people are saying on this site is its okay for Gay people to vote For the Tories for example, And then people don’t want them to have the same rights as every one else This is what happens when you mix politics and religion for example what happened in Northern Ireland and the Middle East. until the Tories bend over and walk a mile in some one else’s shoes they should not make bigoted comments

Shelley, what a bizarre comment! Nobody on here has said anything remotely like that. In fact, this discussion has not been political at all as far as I can see and has focused instead on the problems faced by religious folks when faced with this issue.
It’s always depressing when those fighting for the rights of homosexuals have no problem at all in trampling all over the rights of another group. In this case, people and organisations of deeply held religious convictions are being demonised and slandered because they happen to not agree with Homosexual marriage. I don’t think that it’s right to do that. If the Church used the same kind of language it’s detractors have used in this debate there would be utter condemnation of it from all parties concerned. Christians, and other peoples of faith, have rights too.

For the record, I am neither a homosexual nor a Christian and I do not have any objections to marriage for homosexuals, it just doesn’t affect me in any way whatsoever.

Gray don’t be so ridiculous this decision will be made by the politicians that what I said it, so it is very political I also have nothing against homosexuals it’s up to the individual. I don’t judge any one for their sexual preference

Posted by Gray64.

“It’s always depressing when those fighting for the rights of homosexuals have no problem at all in trampling all over the rights of another group. In this case, people and organisations of deeply held religious convictions are being demonised and slandered because they happen to not agree with Homosexual marriage.”

I could not agree more.

These people with, “deeply held religious convictions”, are really no better than those who would seek to trample all over anyone who disagrees with their point of view, sorry, I mean believes – it really does cut both ways.

The big difference between these bigots and gay couples is that the bigots do have a choice in the matter, whereas it would be difficult for gay couples to become straight.

Please note, I have no problem trampling over the rights of these people because they so richly deserve it. Nuff said.

The only bigot commenting here is The Doove. Your argument is ridiculous. You seem to think that one group of peoples happiness is above another group. Thank God you are not running the country.

As for the religion thing. I cannot remember the last time I went to church but whether we like it or not our whole country is built on the foundations of the Christian faith. People like The Doove may say they don’t believe in God and/or religion but live their lives according to British Law, a large part of which comes directly from the Bible. Most of us do not go down to Grays and rob the shops because we are nice people, we don’t behave like that because it is against the law, morally wrong as it says in the Bible.

The Doove strikes me as someone who thinks their way is the only way showing that those who think they are the most liberal and tolerant are absolute hypocrites.

Shelley also seems to think like The Doove only he thinks that gay people couldn’t possibly vote for the Tories (for some strange reason) – Another narrow minded person as those on the left wing of politics tend to be.

I think the whole issue was more of a distraction rather than a serious move for equality. If any party was so in favour of gay marriage then it would have been in all their manifestos in 2010, which is was not, but with a poor performing economy and a debate over Europe it worries me that politicians have wasted so much time over this non issue.

As always, Gray64, Lambo and NoVoice are all talking a lot of sense.

Bernard if you seem to think that Christians and Catholics in this country are apposed to gay marriage . When people in these two organisations routinely come to the surface for abusing children 9 times out of 10 priest and vicars with boys which has been going on or years. Do you think these religious organisations ought to put their own house in order first before they have a opinion on others. So to take the religious moral high ground is a like puting jimmy savile in charge of childcare in England. An lets not forget the pope was In the Nazi youth organisation.

Spoken like a true Christain Bernard87. Whose happiness would be put in jeopardy if gays were allowed to get married? What a very strange and Illogical train of thought.

Sorry, but I do not understand what you are trying to say in your 3rd paragraph, but I’m sure that it’s not too complimentary – if you could rephrase it perhaps, or use the odd punctuation mark, it may help.

I have nothing against those who practice their religion in a sensible and practical way just as long as they do it with a sense of responsibility.

As for gay people being anti Tory, I, must admit I do not fully understand that train of thought either. I would love to know what your definition of being narrow minded is Bernard87. Those who seek to change the law to make this country a better place, or those who think that just because a few bible bashers say it is wrong then then it must be wrong. I think you must be getting confused.

I do agree with your last but one paragraph, in that it is a bit of a distraction, however it is far from a non issue. Let’s face it, if the church hadn’t make such a big fuss over it, it probably wouldn’t even bother most people.

Bernard87, it doesn’t matter how you phrase things, or how reasonable you try to be; there will always be those people who stick to their own agenda and turn a blind eye or a deaf ear to another point of view. Some of us on here have tried to see both sides of the argument, others only one. I know which side I would rather be on.

How reasonable do you think it is for a group of people trying to destroy the happiness of gay couples? I am trying to stick to my agenda, the agenda of fairness to everybody in the country, including people of a religious persuasion. If you don’t agree with that, then I give up.

I honestly cant see how this is viewed as a group of people trying to destroy the happiness of gay couples? Gay marriage is allowed, the civil partnerships are a legal and binding union of two people, this gives them the same legal rights as a married man and woman.

I fail to see why a gay couple would even want to have a Church Wedding knowing full well that they are contravening the religious doctrine, unless this is a way to “hit the headlines” it would be like asking a Jew to eat a bacon sandwich just because everyone else can (strange analogy I know) but hope you get my drift…

Religious (in) tolerance is seen worldwide and has been going on for centuries without change, Catholocism do not allow contraception, are we going to get them to change, most Christians do not believe is sex before marriage, do we get then to change?

It will never be a perfect world where everyone is equal as we have different religions that hold completely different values.